Talk:Puppetmaster/Archive1
Other stuff Hiachi 21:28, 24 April 2006 (PDT) : Does anyone know where and how to tell what your automaton's current burden (from Maneuver usage) is? :Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any way to tell what the burden currently is. This is particularly annoying when you're dealing with a newly activated automaton, as I seem to constantly have problems with Overload in the first few minutes after I've summoned my automaton. --Althorn 14:00, 10 October 2006 (EDT) ---- I know that when SE releases the PUP's AF this will probably help us find out, but at the moment, does anyone know or have theories of if and which player (not automaton) stats affect automaton performance? - Hiachi 16:45, 2 May 2006 (PDT) ---- : But even current AF gives weird stat boosts that don't particularly help the job at all... Chernabog 06:15, 10 July 2006 (PDT) ---- At the moment, the Automatons stats and performance are self contained, and derive off of the current frames skills and stats, with the exception of AF (And the puppet masters Job Abilities). As I understand it, the Puppetmasters stats only effect the capabilities of the Puppetmaster. - Sye 16:20, 5 October 2006 (EDT) ---- Well, as the topic below touches on...maybe Charisma affects the Automaton stats in some way, seeing that PUP is played off as an entertainer in the story just as Bard. - Hiachi 17:51, 6 October 2006 (EDT) Charisma? I think Charisma may have an effect on something. Probably the duration of the maneuver abilities. I noticed that my Charisma with this job was equal to my Strength as an Elvaan Pup/Mnk. And if you think about it, it does make sense when you think of what a puppet master job actually is: A wandering performer. :Ive noticed this too, infact if I recall PUP AF actually boosts CHR aswell. Perhaps with the comming updates, something new will arise concerning chr? - Sye 16:17, 5 October 2006 (EDT) mix match can you mix/match heads/frams from differnt upgrades? --uberfuzzy 20:56, 22 May 2006 (PDT) While the frame determines what abilities and spells, base stats, and base capacities of the automaton, the head only modifies capacities; and yes you can combine any head with any frame, as long as your current attachments will fit them, or if you've removed all the attachments first. -- Hiachi 08:23, 23 May 2006 (PDT) ---- Actually, the head does not just modify the capacity of the Automaton, but its AI (behavior) as well. The Valoredge head will make the Automaton follow the mob around and stay at close range; the Stormwaker head will keep the Automaton at a distance; and the Sharpshot head is a little of both (since it is capable of both long and short-range combat), I'm told. --Chacharu 01:06, 23 June 2006 (PDT) From what I've seen, an automaton with the Stormwaker frame, no matter the head, will both follow and stand still when fighting a monster, depending where you are when you initially use Deploy. - Hiachi 15:44, 9 July 2006 (PDT) Automaton Item Storage I haven't tried PUP much (just got it to 8 so that when I do start seriously leveling it I can jump straight into the lv8 robe set), but I remember reading somewhere your automaton holds all attachments in it's own inventory. If this is true, does it also hold onto all heads/frames? What it it's inventory space (how many slots)? And what else can it hold? Chernabog 07:33, 9 July 2006 (PDT) Your heads and frames are never in your 'normal' inventory, they're only viewable under Equipment > Automaton. However, because you can buy attachments from the AH/NPC/etc, they start out in the normal inventory. But, after you trade them to Tateeya, they will no longer take up space in your inventory and only show up under Equipment > Automaton when you have PUP as your main or secondary job. - Hiachi 09:28, 9 July 2006 (PDT) : {Sweets}! I guess I have no reason not to get all the automaton attachments, heads and frames then. Chernabog 06:11, 10 July 2006 (PDT) Please tell me PUP don't suck Ok, so from everything I've read so far, PUP seem to suck... C combat skill as their highest (and h2h at that, with no martial arts or kicks or whatnot to help), and automatons not being the most contolable things (feel free to correct me on that), I fail to see why one would have a PUP in a PT... Even soloing you can get screwed. BST can release and charm new pets or use jugs. PUP, if your automaton dies before your 20 minute timer is up you're screwed! So, can someone please explain how I am wrong, and how PUP can be kick ass, cause I don't see it yet. Chernabog 06:15, 10 July 2006 (PDT) Firstly, according to SE, PUP has lower skills because it is a pet job - to balance the job. Secondly, it wasn't meant to be the kind of pet job that BST is, nor DRG....: A DD job in which both the PUP and the Automaton are to deal an about equal amount of damage. - Hiachi 08:48, 10 July 2006 (PDT) You can really see the different amount of work SE put into each Job. Most of the dev time spent on the Expansion, at least for the jobs, went to BLU. SE went through, deciding which spells to select from each mob (and which ones not to select), and set up a pretty complex balancing system (the limited allotment points, the spell combos giving job traits). COR got a lot of work on its Job Abilities, but SE seems to have forgotten about the equipment (as well as forgetting they said the Hexagun was its primary weapon type, and the game has a grand total of 1 Hexagun in it, and its high level to boot). PUP seems to have been poorly developed. It got decent development for the first 20 levels, but beyond that it seems there was no adequate testing. The Job does need a lot of work. Adding more Puppet models and attachments should help facilitate that, but there is the fundamental issue of PUP not being able to pull its own weight in parties. From what I've read, the general consensus is PUP was poorly planned, poorly implemented, and needs quite a bit of work. Once that's done though, it can be a really cool Job. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 00:54, 12 July 2006 (EDT) PUP definitely looks like an afterthought if you compare the Attachments list to the maximum elemental capacities: There's not enough Attachments to even reach the maximum capacity for most elements, making me wonder when they will add more of them, or maybe even consider allowing us to have two of every attachment for more focused customization - Hiachi 14:32, 12 July 2006 (EDT) ---- Ok, PUP Don't suck. Keeping in mind SE has not finnished the expansion yet, I find that it is fine the way it is, it is a proficient melee job, and the diversity of the job is very great, making each pupetmaster different (Unlike for example, Ninja). - Sye Another question about attachments Is there a point to trading the NPC more than 1 of the same attachment? I haven't tried (don't want to waste the gil to find out if they'll even take it), but was wondering the point to the attachments stacking... Seems pointless to have them stack if you'll only ever need 1 of each. Chernabog 04:22, 19 July 2006 (EDT) I wondered about this as well, but apparently its only because they attachments are crafted in stacks. At the moment, you cannot give more then one of the same Attachment to your Automaton. I really wish we could, both because that would allow a more focused customization, as well as make use of the thussofar unusable elemental capacities of the Automaton gear (Such as having 5 spaces for attachments in a particular element, but the highest charge you can get is 4 -- there's gotta be more Attachments on the way) - Hiachi 14:24, 20 July 2006 (EDT) "You must have Automaton Attachments equipped for your Automaton to receive any effects." is a little false -- When you use a Maneuver, not only does your Automaton's Attachments activate and/or become more powerful, the Automaton receives a stat bonus for the stat(s) associated with the currently active Maneuvers (EX: If you have two Water Maneuvers and one Thunder Manuever active, your Automaton has a +2 on MND and a +1 on DEX) - Hiachi 20:44, 27 July 2006 (EDT) Manipulating the Automaton Any idea if a particular combination (and possibly the order itself of the Maneuvers could affect this as well) of Automaton Maneuvers might create actions that the Automaton would not otherwise do? I've seen other PUP's Automatons casting Tier II nukes in Garlaige Citadel or Tier I nukes in Qufim Island, but I can never seem to get my own to cast anything beyond enfeebling and the occasional healing magic. I'll try to experiment with different combinations of Manuevers, but I'd like to know if someone's already done this and found any positive results before I get going - Hiachi 14:30, 20 July 2006 (EDT) I had the same problem, until I read Behaviour of the Stormwaker Frame. It seems your problem is the Scanner, once I stopped equiping that, My Automaton nuked alot. - Sye I actually found a good use for PUP! Low level subbing! Starting off at lv1 is a pain in the butt. Subs usually don't off much other than a little HP or MP, maybe a stat or two, and sometimes a spell (/WHM Cure ftw!). But has anyone else tried subbing PUP? Automatons don't get gimped by being a sub, they are at their full lv1 strength potential. It's almost like duoing, but you get full xp! I did this to take SAM up to lv4 and it was fun. When I did this I didn't have any attachments yet, but afterwards I went out and bought them right away. I'm going to level DRK now with PUP sub and I can't wait to see how the attachments help. ^^ Chernabog 08:41, 24 July 2006 (EDT) ---- I really don't see why people dislike Puppetmasters. C rating in Hand to Hand skill, therefore they must stink, right? When you invite a PUP you're inviting 2 "people" not just 1. I like having a PUP in the party the only down side is that the puppet will sometimes interrupt a skillchain but that can be avoided when the PUP uses a macro.--Perim 09:13, 24 July 2006 (EDT) ---- I can't outright say PUP suck; I've never PTed with one yet (which in itself says something about how ppl view PUP). I don't think they can be as good DDs or support as some other Jobs, but I still have to experience it for myself to say for sure. What I do know is it looks like it stinks. It also looks boring if taken much past 30. No new JTs or JAs. The new AF will help, but still a bit of a gap between 30 and 52 (yes, the new animator at 40...). I'm skeptical. I do however want to level PUP until at least 37 (I want to get all jobs to 37... I just want to do PUP sooner than some others). Chernabog 10:43, 25 July 2006 (EDT) So I finally got a chance to PT with a PUP today I still say the Master shouldn't melee. At least this one shouldn't've. Automaton was doing more damage, sometimes double the master. He was using the Valoredge frame and head. Maybe if the Master used some dif gear... I'll try it out when I lv up PUP, but so far it's looking like PUP/BRD staying on the back lines for me. Master didn't do enough dmg in my mind to justify meleeing (ie: to justify giving the mob TP). I'd like to see another PUP who goes for more of a dmg build though. I think they do have potential, but not quite there yet. Maybe more dmg stuff in higher levels. This was in a qufim pt. I think if I went the dd route I'd sub RNG post 20 for the acc boost to make up for the lower skill. P.S. Please check out the Automaton Attachments page and add any info you know. Chernabog 12:17, 29 July 2006 (EDT) In an exp party, even an ideally gearedout automaton shouldnt be doing more damage than the master. Mine (I have about +25 str with gear and food, and use wagh baghnakhs) does on average about 60% of what I do. Added together (master + pet), I still only do somewhat more damage than a tank job. Hopefully the changes in todays update (increased elemental capacities and new attachments) will have some effect on our ability. The PUP subligar quest doublet is nice before 60 but you'll still use AF body after 60. Tahngarthor 14:59, 18 October 2006 (EDT) Guard, Throwing Skills Can somebody confirm if these skills are B/C +, __, or -? After being accessible for 3 months, these should be easy to figure out precisely by now. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 10:53, 30 July 2006 (EDT) : Most ppl don't cap Guard or Throwing though. At least I don't know anyone with either capped on any job. Chernabog 04:09, 31 July 2006 (EDT) Cap for a lvl 75 PUP in Throwing is 230 and Gaurd is 250. I have tried to update this info on the job listings. Laverna 08/12/06 Damage Dealt I've been subbing Dark Knight on Puppetmaster for Attack Bonus and Last Resort and have been doing some pretty decent damage. I've seen lots of people complaining about the 'C' in Hand-to-hand, but my automaton more than makes up for it. My automaton and I put out a good deal of damage and rarely take hate from the tank (I only tend to get hate when using Last Resort). People pay too much attention to the big numbers and don't take the time to add up how much damage Puppetmasters are actually doing; 2 decent hits from my Hand-to-hand + 1 decent hit from the automaton's fist + 1 huge hit from ranged attack (if range frame) = large amount of damage. Combine that with the fact that my automaton and I can do our own Weaponskill and we have pretty good damage output. Puppetmaster also seems to have a good accuracy rating so most of my swings hit their mark. --Cainsworld 15:12, 1 August 2006 (EDT) : Wait until the mid-high level range and watch your acc drop. Chernabog 06:46, 3 August 2006 (EDT) Im Mid-High level and my Acc is fine. And I do good damage, even when subbing a mage job like rdm. My damage output is decent enough, that when combined with my automaton I give other DD's a run for thier money. - Sye New guide I've completed and posted a guide on Behaviour of the Stormwaker Frame. Looks like the Puppetmaster page itself is protected, so I'll stick the link here for an admin to add and everyone else to edit and reformat. Weapon Skills Based on this PUP cannot use any of the quested weapon skills. Is this correct? --Gahoo 15:11, 5 September 2006 (EDT) ---- Yep. That makes them the only Job unable to get a quested weaponskill. SE should just give them a quested weaponskill for the Automaton (like the same category Chimera Ripper is in). Maybe they should have PUP use an Automaton of Trials too :D --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 20:00, 5 September 2006 (EDT) Spelling error It says "Weapon of Choise".... should be "Weapon of Choice". Matjlav 18:43, 19 September 2006 (EDT) Weaknesses *Automaton is the main focus for most of PUP. How about "all" of PUP?. - No, "MOST" Sye * Automatons have a tendency to weaponskill at random, which can disript skillchains if the owner doesn't Retrieve them before hand. Disrupt. With a U. Chernabog 07:10, 11 August 2006 (EDT) * Id like to suggest addidng to the list of weakness's, that Pup has alot of controversy as a job, and there are many misconceptions that make party leaders think twice before intviting them to parties. As a result, getting a party as a pup can take a long time. - Sye * So you are trying to have added the simple fact that it is a new job and not many people understand it leads it to have a slow party invite rate... ??? If that was the case, COR and BLU would be in the same category but I haven't really found any more bias told PUP than I have for BST. PUP are sort of like the new BST in that respect... They can solo, they have a pet... sure they don't lose xp for having their automaton out but that just makes them like drg... another job that has a difficult time getting an invite... I don't necessarily feel it as a misconception, more of an accepted thing among certain jobs... Job that have the ability to solo and certain downfalls have a harder time getting invites than jobs that don't. Drg's Wyverns eat at their HP with Spirit Link, but with the new 2 Hour and the working in of the 20 min Wyvern recast, drg has become less of a party pariah than it used to, BST with their pets, that too has been fixed - the xp factor among other things, SMN and peoples inability to really understand their purpose in a party, and now PUP with their Automatons that weaponskill at random when not played properly... Its a complex issues, I do recognize the PUPs difficulty in getting a party over say a Warrior or Black Mage but their are other jobs that have similar issues as well and I don't know how I would want to word this. --Nynaeve 08:40, 20 September 2006 (EDT) * Ill note, that on the BST page, the misconception IS noted in the weakness' section. I havnt had any hard times getting a party on blu, or cor, or drg for that matter. It doesnt seem any different than bst in parties, except the misconceptions, that pup can tank (Ive had that), that pup can main heal (had that too), and that Automatons can heal the party... - Sye :First off, personally I think that the BST misconception weakness should be taken out. The misconception with PUP is that most ppl think it sucks and not up to par with most other DD jobs. The BST one is based off how it worked in the past and ppl not reading what updates give, the later comes from it being true with about 90% of the PUPs out there (most do stink, making it hard for those who actually do good DD as PUP). As for the misconceptions of Tanking and Main Healing, there are forum articles on certain websites about PUPs doing just those things... Your statement about the Automaton healing the pt is the only true misconception. PUP is still looking for a nitch (did I spell that right?), and until SE finishes up the job (I'm sure most people can agree it was a rush job left incomplete) it's hard to place it into a pt. I'm holding off until January to seriously lv PUP; supposedly they're going to fix it up by then. The "misconception" really comes from the C H2H... But there's already a note on "Rank C in H2H prevents PUP from learning Asuran Fists, the H2H quested weaponskill." If you want, and I think it should, also point out that this also hurts their DDing unless you have some seriously pimped out gear to make up for the loss in skill. Chernabog 05:08, 2 October 2006 (EDT) :Im basing my statements on experience, In parties for example, in quicksand caves, between me and my automaton I can near enough match a Dark Knights damage output, the only major problem I find playing the job is its lack of invites, which isnt even noted on the page! If someone wanted to level pup, and wanted an idea of where it lacks, that would be atleast one thing Id mention. I dont go to other websites, I go here for my information, what other websites have to say about pup is largley based on opinion. - Sye :: The usual "weakness" listed for all the other DDs of having to compete for spots should suffice. PUP is kinda last on the list of DDs to invite to PTs, but ppl don't outright refuse to invite them. Just today I got an invite on PUP (had to refuse the invite b/c I had to get ready for Sky, I was just soloing a little beforehand). Chernabog 06:57, 4 October 2006 (EDT) :The misconceptions probably aren't helped by the fact that automatons can actually do things like Provoke. The Valoredge is actually capable of tanking - but only for very short periods of time, due to the problems in keeping it healed. And due to those problems, it's not really suitable even as a regular off-tank. In Valkurm parties, I did have my Valoredge Provoke a mob on occasion. But that was only when something had gone wrong and the tank was in serious trouble. And iirc, my automaton went down every time I had to do that. --Althorn 14:00, 10 October 2006 (EDT) For weakness, I'd add a note about the difficulty in healing the automaton. If your automaton takes a lot of damage in a short period of time, it's probably going to die. Repair can heal a decent amount of damage (Automaton Oil +2 is more potent than Regen III, and is available a lot sooner), but you can't curebomb the automaton like you can a player character. It might also be a good idea to reconsider the Support tag in the 'Role in Parties' section. Automaton buffs are self-only, it only cures itself and its master, and there's a lengthy period of time between each debuff cast (and add that two of the four frames have Flash as their only debuff). --Althorn 17:07, 10 October 2006 (EDT) :My Automaton, in its Harlequin and Stormwaker frame Cures itself and me. At the moment, it casts Cure III (which is more than enough for both him and me) ofcourse the masters themselves can control when the automaton cures, but they need a special attatchment to do that. The Mage frame has tons of debufs like Slow, Paralyze, Blind etc and to that effect, the harlequin frame has those spells aswell, the thing they have above other mages is the fact that the masters can multi-refresh them. Id agree that the role in parties COULD be support, just as it COULD be Damage Dealer (I agree that if your not subbing a melee job, or have pimped out gear, or something to that effect... the masters damage doesnt compare with other DDs, even if combined with the Automatons damage), So far (that is to say, a Puppetmaster with no sub or regular non-spacific gear, it would just be considered a fair bit of added damage. Im leveling bard atm to sub on Pup because Ive seen it used in a party, and its awesome. - Sye 19:02, 12 October 2006 (EDT) ::The thing about the automaton debuffs, though, is the recast time. How long does it take the average red mage (a competent one, that is... there's a sig over at Killing Ifrit that has someone telling the PUP that they're glad the automaton is casting debuffs - because the RDM sure isn't...) to get all of the standard debuffs in place? I would imagine it's less time than the roughly 25 seconds between casts that the Stormwaker frame has. So yes, it can cast. But not at anything approaching a practical rate. And cures cast by the automaton will only affect the automaton and you. It won't cure anyone else in your party. Hence the reason I really don't consider PUP a support job. If you choose to sub a support job, then you can act in a support role. But it's not PUP that's providing the support. --Althorn 13:49, 16 October 2006 (EDT) :::the Mage frames support only stands to support the master, thats a given point, the job would be a bit too Ideal if the pup could heal the party aswell. Pup (As in, the Puppetmaster)'s sub job only stands to make the player better, I suppose thats why its so varied from player to player, some like to be support, some like to be melee. either way you wont get as good as the automaton. (unless you REALLY pimp out your gear) Sye 18:29, 25 October 2006 (EDT) :::: Wont get better than your automaton? The only thing you wont get better than your automaton at is curing yourself with WHM sub. You should be doing more damage than the automaton if you are meleeing, except on HNMs (If you can keep it alive for a reasonable length of time, valor does a semi-decent job at hydra, better than you at least). I have all the best attachments; even when I max out its attack, I still do more damage than it does. Tahngarthor 20:33, 18 November 2006 (EST) :::::Im a Tarutaru, and have only recently started subbing War on pup, and only now have I managed to out-damage my automaton. - Sye 11:44, 23 November 2006 (EST) *The strengths and weaknesses section needs a revamp. It reads like something out of the Brady Games guide: "Automatons can fulfill various roles in a party." "Mixing frames can bring interesting results." These comments are vague. It would be more beneficial to be concise and not list anything at all than to fill dead space. "Good solo ability. Automaton can tank with the right attachments to a certain extent." While PUP is decent at soloing for quests and such, it is not effective for solo XPing at high levels. From 1-55 PUP is extremely strong both inside and outside of a party, since all attachments are available at level 1. While it's true that the pet is an effective tank at these levels, I think the "soloing" craze was more due to the ADD exploit in combination with the harle/stormwalker's constant cure IVs with infinite mp. When most people "solo", it's the puppetmaster, not the pet that's tanking. "Role in Parties: Damage Dealer, Support (?)" Trying to pigeonhole or compare the job only fosters more lolPUP naivety. I don't believe that PUP fills any preconcieved party roles. Honestly, I think PUP was meant for multi-tank parties. The valor head + stormwalker frame combination is an extremely effective short-term tank. It can stoneskin itself once every three minutes, drop a cure on itself every 45 seconds, and repair every three minutes. You can circumvent these timer limitations by having someone else take hate until the puppet has sufficient health. While the puppet itself cannot tank the entire battle, it can mitigate damage that would otherwise have been directed towards another player. PUP/WAR is also the ideal SATA partner, as he requires minimal healing support when using either the harle or stormwalker frames. Having the puppetmaster main tank is another matter entirely. I believe that it is possible, but only against VT, without AoE, and it is vastly more effective below mid 50s due to hate management. You should be able to dual tank yourself with the valor/harle combo without losing hate by having the pet provoke approximately 15-20 seconds after your first provoke, then grabbing hate back after 30 seconds with the second provoke. This serves two purposes. First, it covers your butt for the last few seconds of provoke, which is when you are most likely to lose hate. Second, it allows the puppet to utilize stoneskin and repair, reducing the damage that you take. If you absolutely feel the need to give it a role, I think it would be more accurate to include something about how it supports, otherwise people think it's like BRD/COR/SMN/RDM. "Role in Parties: Damage Dealer, Supporting Tank" or something to that effect. Unfortunately it doesn't really fill either of these roles after you graduate from colibri levels, but it still has a lot of use for specialized events. Here are some suggestions for new strengths and weaknesses: Strengths: :Low hate is easy on tanks. Damage is split between master and pet. :Can heal himself and remove status ailments without magic aggro or party member support. (Including sleep, petrify, poison, paralyze, slow, blind, disease, curse, and all eraseable ailments.) :Automaton can flash the enemy, available at level 1. :Automaton can temporarily tank with provoke, stoneskin, and the repair job ability. :Mage automatons automatically cast enfeebles that are not present on the enemy. :Valoredge automaton automatically shield bashes tp moves. :Automaton automatically skillchains. :Extremely good at farming low level monsters. Weaknesses: :Automaton enfeebles do not stick on stronger mobs. :Automaton AI sometimes makes poor spell choices or wastes shield bash. :AoEs can limit pet versatility/effectiveness. :Automatons tend to interrupt weaponskills if the owner does not Retrieve them before a skillchain. :Owner is comparatively weaker at meleeing than other -melee- jobs. I would put the Asuran Fists comment in "other notes". It's more of a balance than a weakness. It seems redundantly negative to include both under the weaknesses section. I think PUP might be able to get Asuran Fists... im sure everyone knows about the lvl 30 skill+ belts with the latents but wouldn't the Cestus belt with /MNK at lvl 75 give PUP Asuran fists? i mean it is only 5 skill lvls short of having the ws even tho they still cannot quest it -Emrod of Kujata Did I just hear you say you think PUP can get Asuran Fists even though they are 5 skill levels short of having the WS and even though they still can't quest it?? Please clarify, because that's what your above post sounds like to me. But regardless, read below for a little math. I'm trying to think of anything else that adds to H2H skill, but only thing I can think of is that belt. :PUP75 H2H = 225, +5 from the belt = 230, +16 from capped merits = 246. Asuran is 250. ;Chernabog 05:16, 2 October 2006 (EDT) Faith Torque gives +7 Hand-to-hand skill. - Malumultimus ::Don't forget Divine Might rewards too. Gahoo :I was under the impression that regardless of what Hand-to-hand skill you have, only MNK is capable of using this WS. I guess until someone can confirm this, or until the job is updated this iss all mere speculation - Sye 11:48, 4 October 2006 (EDT) I think the question is, "If you quested for Asuran Fists on MNK, and was able to get your PUP H2H skill up to 250 (with /MNK), would you then be able to use Asuran Fists?" --Chrisjander 12:05, 4 October 2006 (EDT) :Golandra added language to each of the quested WSs which answers this question as "no". It would arise in other situations too I think (i.e. SAM and sword WS). Maybe check with Golandra to see what his/her source was and whether it was based on testing. --Gahoo 13:23, 4 October 2006 (EDT) ::Okay, Somepage does not have Asuran Fists listed as MNK Only. So reading this, I would assume that PUP fully Hand-to-Hand buffed up, having quested it can in fact utilize it. I would like to know where Golandra got his information for that statement seeing as I see things pointing to it being otherwise. I am going to post this on the Talk:Asuran Fists Page as well and moving Golandras Statement pending verification to the Talk Page. This needs further verification one way or the other but for now, it does in fact seem that a PUP that has quested it on Monk can with 250 skill get Asuran Fists. --Nynaeve 19:03, 4 October 2006 (EDT) Forgot about the Torque, but none of the DM rewards gives H2H. So we're sitting at 246 + 7 for torque = 253. Chernabog 01:32, 5 October 2006 (EDT) P.S. Lets move talk about Asuran Fists to the Talk:Asuran Fists page... I already posted something there. Chernabog 01:48, 5 October 2006 (EDT) Square Enix is rumored to be planning some changes for Puppetmaster during the December update, according to a few Japanese sources. The recent surge of improvements to Samurai, Dragoon and Summoner, and the announced "ideas" by Square Enix to improve the classes, would stand to reason that this rumor has ground. --Greix 17:10, 13 November 2006 (EST) Vaprak 16 November 2006 : I was going to correct everywhere there were mistaken references to the "Stormwalker" frame... it's Stormwaker, no "L" :p but the page is locked :p I created new "stormwaker" pages. Delete the "stormwalker" pages if you have permission. :Done. --Nynaeve 09:44, 17 November 2006 (EST) Puppetmaster Job Traits Puppetmaster has more job traits than are listed Resist Slow.....10 Evasion Up.....20.....Evasion+10 Martial Arts 1.....25.....Delay 400 Evasion Up.....40.....Evasion+22 Martial Arts 2.....50.....Delay 380 Resist Slow.....50 Evasion Up.....60.....Evasion+35 Resist Slow.....70..... Martial Arts 3.....75.....Delay 360 Sources: http://zenkeishisei.com/modules/bwiki/index.php http://ff11wiki.rdy.jp/1960487419.html#n7f54147 The Martial Arts portion was tested to be accurate: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html?fjob=18;mid=116392876648585920;num=61;page=1 The rest could be contested, but I personally think it is accurate as well having lots of solo experience as PUP from 1-75. Other experienced PUPs in the aforementioned ZAM thread tend to agree, but the mods are free to make up their own minds based on the evidence provided. ---- Not sure I said it in Alla or not, but, great find Elmer. I recommend the webpage be updated with Martial Arts II & III and finding some way to test Resist Slow (Diorama?) before putting it up. Or Resist Slow can be put up with (?) behind it. The same can be said for Evasion. And whoever at the Wiki who can test this out, try and find a COR. They should have more than one Resist too. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 11:16, 26 November 2006 (EST)